Thursday, November 8, 2012


Thank you to all those American voters who fought against voter suppression, long lines, faulty voting machines, and lack of ballots to keep a Mormon out of the WHITE HOUSE.

Timothy Lee Unrine

Sunday, October 14, 2012

Mormon Mitt Sends Jobs To China, Americans To Unemployment Line

170 American workers are losing their jobs to China is December thanks to Mitt's Bain Capital boys selling out Sensata Technologies; the same plant where the American flag had to be removed per Romney's Bain Capital while the Chinese were in town being trained on the equipment.

Sensata workers living proof Romney's tough talk China worthless

Romney's Company Forces U.S. Flag To Be Lowered In Illinois

Mormons aren't interested in American jobs, in fact Mormons would rather have the average American suffering. For when someone is suffering a set back, like unemployment, death in the family, severe illness, those people are most susceptible for the Mormon Missionaries to infiltrate your lives - to offer their 'free' let me shovel your snow, rake your leaves, mow your yard, anything to put that proverbial foot in the door to prevent you from slamming it.

Has Obama, an American Christian, ordered U.S. flags removed for the Chinese?  Or has Romney, an American Mormon?

Friday, October 12, 2012

Mitt Romney Walked With MLK, Walked With Neil Armstrong Too

"I Walked With Martin Luther King, I Was Also With Lincoln When He Was Shot- Honest, I'm A Mormon, we don't lie." Mitt Romney

by Timothy Lee Unrine                                                                                           October 12, 2012

"In 1978, Mitt Romney would tell the Boston Globe that he and his father both marched with Martin Luther King." (Gane-McCalla, para 1)

What causes a man to want to be connected to a figure in history? Remember, the Mormon faith was based on a boy, Joseph Smith, going to the woods and talking to both Jesus Christ and God. (We won't discuss that this First Vision story took eighteen years and eight major revisions to have the First Vision as the Mormons sell it today.) Mitt was raised in a wealthy family, his father was well connected, so I'm sure Mitt met Congressmen, Senators, Governors, Mayors, business executives; yet Mormons have a need to develop a connection with a historic figures.

Mitt you did not march with Martin Luther King Jr. Rather at BYU you fought hard as President of the all-white Cougar Club to surpress an athletic boycott by universities against BYU because of it's racist policies. SO you are the type of person Martin Luther King Jr was protesting against, you are the type of person who would have supported James Earl Ray in the assassination of a black man daring to makes blacks and white equal.

Similarly, this is why you used a white-Mormon only minister of religion deferment to hide out in France, with Ann also enrolled in a Paris university (convenient to date on mission during a war, explains your baptism rate).

"In the most watched speech of his political career, speaking on 'Faith in America' at College Station, Texas earlier this month, Mitt Romney evoked the strongest of all symbolic claims to civil-rights credentials: 'I saw my father march with Martin Luther King.'" (Bernstein, para 1)

"He has repeated this claim several times recently, most prominently to Tim Russert on Meet the Press..." (Bernstein, para 2)

"Nor did Mitt Romney ever previously claim that this took place, until long after his father passed away in 1995 - note even when defending accusations of the Mormon church's discriminatory past during his 1994 Senate Campaign." (Bernstein, para 3)

"George Romney would later lead a 10,000 person march through Detroit, but not with King. (Bernstein, para 18)

"(George) Romney, according to one piece of written source material provided by the campaign made a 'surprise' appearance at a small march. . . Grasse Pointe, Michigan, in late June, several days after King led a much larger march in Detroit. Romney spokesperson Erick Fehhrnstrom suggests that these two were part of the same 'series' of events, co-sponsored by King and the NAACP, and is thus consistent with (Mitt) Romney's claim that 'I saw my father march with Martin Luther King, Jr." (Bernstein, para 22)

"'I saw my father march with Martin Luther King.' But as David Bernstein reported, that wasn't quite right. There was no evidence of Romney's father, George, marching with Martin Luther King, Jr., at Grosse Pointe, Michigan, as the (Mitt Romney) campaign had claimed; for one, Martin Luther King had never been to Grosse Pointe. The campaign later clarified that George Romney and Martin Luther King had marched together in a metaphorical sense - they were in different cities, and the marches took place on different days - and that Mitt (who was no present for either event) had seen his father march in a metaphorical sense as well.) (Murphy, para 4)

Mitt lies, Mormons lie, Mormons taught might to lie.

Kill the Mormon White Horse Prophecy at the ballot box, don't let the Mormon Doctrine of Lying for the Lord install a Mormon President - sworn to obey the Mormon prophet, Supreme Leader of the Mormon Cult, Thomas Monson.
 Bernstein, David. "Was it all a dream?." The Phoenix. December 21, 2007. Accessed 10/12/2012.
 Gane-McGalla, Casey. "Did Mitt Romney Lie About Father Marching With MLK?" NewsOne - for Black America. January 18, 2012.
 Murphy, Tim. "The Republican Field on Martin Luther King: It's Complicated." Mother Jones. January 16, 2012. Accessed 10/12/2012.

Wednesday, October 3, 2012

What About Paul Ryan's Nazi Connection?

Republicans keep claiming that President Obama was not born in the United States, even though he produced a birth certificate, news announcements.

But Paul Ryan hasn't produced an documents to clear his resemblance to Hitler's Number Two man, Rudolf Hess.  Facial features are quite prominent- the blood line to the Nazi elite is there.

So Republicans can keep asking for Obama's birth certificate; but I'm concerned, and can not vote for a man with a Nazi connection.

Monday, September 10, 2012

Mormons call Christians anti-Christs; but if a Christian challenges a Mormon is bigotry?

Double-standards of Mormons make for deficiencies in Presidential Candidates

by: Timothy Lee Unrine September 10, 2012

Matthew 7:1 is a typical Mormon defensive tactic towards any challenge against Mormonism. Which seems hypocritical of Mormons since Mormons judge non-Mormons who believe in Christianity as an abomination; a Mormon attitude developed by Joseph Smith himself:

Do not judge, or you to will be judged. For in the same way you judges others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. (Matt 7:1 NIV)
Mormons love to partially quote scripture and take it out of context. Even the serpent knows and uses the words of God to lead people astray, just like he bequiled Eve in the garden.
But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, you minds may somehow be lead astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. (2 Cor 11:3 NIV)
If we look at Matthew 7:1 in light of challenging Mormons:

Do not challenge another Christians faith, or your own faith may be challenged. For in the way that you apply the Holy Bible, it will be likewise applied to you. And how you rate someone's Christianity, your's will be rate too.

A majority of Christian faith do follow and adhere to this Gospel principle. Penecostals do not condemn Baptists as not being Christians. Baptists do not condemn Lutherans as not being Christians. Methodists don't condemn Catholics as not being Christians. HOWEVER, the Mormons condemn all Christians faiths that do not embrace Joseph Smith and Mormonism abomination.
The fact is, proving Mormonismm to be false is not an attack but a defense of the Christian faith. Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism make the first attack by claiming that all Christian denominations are an abomination in God's sight. (Mormonism, para 2).
Mormons go so far as to call Christians the anti-Christ for not following Joseph Smith:
. . . I have taught for thirty years, and still teach, that he that believeth in his heart and confesseth with his mouth that Jesus is the Christ and that Joseph Smith is his Prophet to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-Christ. (Brigham Young. Journal of Discourses Volume 9, page 312, July 13, 1862).
Brigham Young, Mormonism's "prophet," says if us Christians, us Baptists, us Calvanists, us Lutherans, us Catholics, us Penecostals - all Christian faiths - if us Christians don't believe in our hearts, and confess with our mouths that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God - then we are the anti-Christ.

That is the very attitude carried by Mormons today. They believe that their religion is the only true religion, ours are of the anti-Christ; and we must accept Joseph Smith. However, Mormons don't believe that to be judging, nor attacking Christianity - because a Mormon is doing it - so a different set of rules apply.

Let me repeat the opening paragraph:

Matthew 7:1 is a typical Mormon defensive tactic towards any challenge against Mormonism. Which seems hypocritical of Mormons since Mormons judge non-Mormons who believe in Christianity as an abomination.

Mormons love to attempt to stop counter-challenges to Mormonism. Between judge not, you're a bigot, to being called an anti-Mormon (as if that one title is actually a bad name), all in a vain attempt to get a Christian to say "Oh, I'm so sorry that I offended you; please continue to call my faith anti-Christ."

Why should Christians bother though? First, the main target of recruitment for Mormons is Christians - Mormonism has developed it's language around Christian terms, but have assigned different meanings to them. Mormons have a Christ that was conceived by the Mormon god having physical sex with Mary, versus the Christian Christ being conceived by the Holy Spirt and born of the Virgin Mary.

The theological differences are too lengthly to discuss here, but those are some examples.

So we are commanded to protect our fellow Christians from false gospels, false teachers, false profits that entice weaker members of the Christian faith with tales and myths of Mormonism, disquised as Christianity.
Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke, and encourage - with great patience and careful instruction.
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instruct to seek their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
They will turn their ears away from truth and turn aside to myths.
(2 Timothy 4:2-4 NIV)

When we are challenging Mormons, whether at our door, on the internet, or at work (if they bring up Mormonism first - otherwise religion in the workplace is not recommended), what is it that Christians are doing when they challenge Mormonism? REBUKE!

What is REBUKE? "To scold sharply." (Websters, 269)

Where in the New Testament are we given examples of REBUKE?
But when John rebuked Herob the tetrach because of Herodias, his brother's wife, and all the other evil things he had done. (Luke 3:19 NIV)
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and the Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
"Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.
"And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones of God can raise up children of Abraham.
"The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce ggood fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire." (Matthew 3:7-10 NIV)

Two examples of John the Baptist giving two very strong rebukes. The first was to King Herod and the type of relationship that Herod had with her current wife; the other directly challenging the religious leaders of the city. Is John the Baptist judging or rebuking? Or does the example show that Christians should REBUKE when Christianity is 'insulted' by false teachers (Pharisees, Sadducees), or even REBUKE rulers when they living conditions aren't in tune with the scriptures?

What about Jesus though? He Jesus ever demonstrate rebuke? We are asked to emulate Christ in our lives afterall.
Jesus entered the Temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves.
"It is written," he said to them, "My house will be called a house of prayer, but you are making it a 'den of robbers.'" (Matthew 21:12-13 NIV)

Rebuking the money changers and scolding them, correcting them inthe process, teaching the purpose of the temple is to be a house of prayer.

As I have demonstrated 'judge not' is not a sufficient challenge to stop a Christian from challenging Mormonism. As Mormons approach Christians to convert them, the Christians are told their priests are properly ordained, their baptisms are therefore invalid, and their church is false - only the Mormons have the true church.

Baptists do not judge Methodists, or Methodist might judge Baptists.

Mormons are judging Christians, therefore Christians can judge Mormons.

Christians must not cease the rebuke of Mormons; we have a Christian duty to defend our faith, as well as a duty to save souls. Without saving Christians from Mormonism, we are condemning our fellow Christians.
If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned. (1 Galatians 1:9 NIV)
As shown, if we don't reach out to correct Mormons of their misconceptions, we have condemned them. So we must reach out to those who the Mormons are trying to convert, as well as the Mormons themselves. Our Christ welcomes back any lost sheep, at any time.


"Mormonism." Contender Ministries. accessed 7/12/2012.

Webster's New Pocket Dictionary. 2000. Edited by Jonathan L Goldman. Cleveland: Wiley Publishers, Inc.

Scriptures taken from the HOLY BIBLE, NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION, NIV. Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society.

Sunday, July 22, 2012

Vol 3 Postponed Out Of Respect At Massacre Victims

by Timothy Lee Unrine

My sympathies go out to the unarmed men, women and children who lost their lives to gunfire:

William Allen Aden, 19 George W Baker, 27

Manerva A Beller Baker, 25 Mary Lovina, 7

Melissa Ann Beller, 14 David W Beller, 12

John T Baker, 52 Abel, 19

John Beach, 21 William Cameron, 51

Martha Cameron, 51 Tillman Cameron, 24

Isom Cameron, 18 Henry Cameron, 16

James Cameron, 14 Martha Cameron, 11

Nancy Cameron, 12 Allen P Deshazo, 20

Jesse Dunlap, Jr., 39 Mary Wharton Dunlap, 39

Ellender Dunlap, 18 Nancy M Dunlap, 16

James D Dunlap, 14 Lucinda Dunlap, 12

Susannah Dunlap, 12 Margerette Dunlap, 11

Mary Ann Dunlap, 9 Lorenzo D Dunlap, 42

Nancy Wharton Dunlap, 42 Thomas J Dunlap, 17

John H Dunlap, 16 Mary Ann Dunlap, 13

Talitha Emaline Dunlap, 11 Nancy Dunlap, 9

America Jane Dunlap, 7 William Eaton

Silas Edwards Alexander Fancher, 45

Eliza Ingrum Fancher, 45 Hampton Fancher, 32

William Fancher, 17 Mary Fancher, 15

Thomas Fancher, 14 Martha Fancher, 10

Sarah G Fancher, 8 Margaret A Fancher, 7

Robert Fancer, 19 Saladia Ann Brown Huff

William Huff Elisa Huff + two other sons

John Milum Jones, 32 Eloah Angeline Tackitt Jones, 27

John Milum Jones, 32 Newton Jones

Lawson A McEntire, 21 Josiah (Joseph) Miller, 30

Matilda Cameron Miller, 26 James William, 9

Charles R Mitchell, 23 Sara C Baker Mitchell, 21

John Mitchell, infant Joel D Mitchell, 23

John Prewit, 20 William Prewit, 18

Milum L Rush, 28 Cynthia Tackitt, 49

Marion Tackitt, 20 Sebron Tackitt, 18

Matilda Tackitt, 16 James M Tackett, 14

Jones M Tackitt, 12 Pleasant Tackitt, 25

Amilda Miller Tackitt, 22 Richard Wilson

Soloman Wood, 20 William Wood, 26

plus others unidentified -

Let us remember those whose lives were cut short on September 11, 1857, when a band of armed Mormons massacred 120 men, women and children at Mountain Meadows. The Fancher Wagon Train was estimated to be carrying at least $70,000, with some estimates at $300,000. Just out of coincidence the Tithing Room of Cedar City Ward had some sizable 'deposits' after this date.

The tragedy in Colorado needs everyone's sympathy and prayers, but will we forget the victims like America has forgotten the victims of Mountain Meadows?

What caused the Mormons to massacre these unarmed civilians? Mormon apologists say it was in retaliation for events in Missouri. But carrying the $70,000 is a huge amount of money for a wagon train; a winning lottery ticket on wheels.

But even today the Mormons refuse to open up their archives to outside scholars to research Brigham Young's role in ordering the massacre. Some reports have Brigham Young riding around in Salt Lake in a fancy wagon 'confiscated' from the abandon Fancher Wagon Train.

Mass murder isn't a modern side effect of the video games such as Call to Duty or even violent movies. Mass murder has always been around, like the Mormon murderers at the Mountain Meadows Massacre showed.

Timothy Lee Unrine

Sunday, July 15, 2012

Mormons Say: Christ was NOT Begotten by the Holy Spirit

What Are Mormons Saying Behind Your Back?

Volume 2: Christ was NOT Begotten by the Holy Spirit.

9 Beliefs of the Prophets and Apostles of the Mormon Church which support the belief that Jesus Christ was not Begotton by the the Holy Spirit, but rather the Virgin Mary and the Mormon God had literal intercourse.

by Timothy Lee Unrine

Christians of all denominations believe that the Virgin Mary was told that she was going to give birth to the Savior:
"Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus." (Luke 1:30 - 31 NIV),
"The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35 NIV).

Joseph was told too: "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." (Matthew 1:20 - 21 NIV).

This is the "keystone" to Christianity; having the faith and belief in the Virgin Birth of Mary, that the Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit; not some physical intimacy between an immortal God and Mary.

If front of us the Mormons are saying that they are Christians, that they believe in the same Christ as we do. However, behind our backs, the Mormons say that Jesus was NOT begotten of the Holy Spirit - clearly not in line with the Bible.

I can understand why Mormon Romney doesn't want to answer any questions on his faith. MormonVoice and FairLDS are trying hard to convince America that Mormons are Christians; however, behind our backs - Mormon theology is not Christianity at all.

Behind our backs the Mormons say that Jesus was not begotten by the Holy Ghost as the Bible clearly says. Mormons say that the Mormon God had come down and had physical relations with Mary to conceive Jesus.



"When the Virgin Mary conceived the Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 1, Pg 50 - 51).



"If the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children to be palmed off on the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulty." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 1, Pg 50 - 51).



"They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The Book of Mormon teaches no such thing! Neither does the Bible." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 1, Pg 19).



"CHRIST NOT BEGOTTEN OF HOLY GHOST. I believe firmly that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. He taught this doctrine to his disciples. He did not teach them that He was the Son of the Holy Ghost, but the Son of the Father....Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was GOD!" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 1, Pg 18).



"The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of the flesh and blood --was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 8, Pg 115).



"I am bold to say to you . . . The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which he performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor WAS HE BEGOTTEN BY THE HOLY GHOST." ("Five Marks of the Divinity of Jesus Christ," Ensign, Dec 2001, pg. 8.)



"SON OF MARY. . . but the Holy Ghost is not the Father of Christ and when the child was born, he was the Son of the Eternal Father." (Bruce R McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p 273).



"Christ was begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal father." (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pg 547).



"Our Lord is the only mortal person ever born to a virgin, because he is the only person who ever had an immortal Father." (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pg 822).


Brigham Young, Mormon Prophet - 1847 - 1877, Mormon Apostle - 1835

Joseph F Smith, Mormon Prophet - 1901 - 1918, Mormon Apostle - 1866

Bruce McConkie - Mormon Apostle - 1972 - 1985



Sunday, July 8, 2012

What Are Mormons Saying Behind Your Back? Vol 1: Bigot Young

What Are Mormons Saying Behind Your Back?

Volume 1: Bigot Young

10 Beliefs of the "Prophet" whom the Mormons revere so much that they named their flagship university after him: Brigham Young

by Timothy Lee Unrine

The Mormon Church is quick to point out that the Journal of Discourses ARE NOT official scriptures or doctrines of the Mormon church; however, these are the ramblings of their prophets and counselors to their prophets.

These comments show how the MORMONS REALLY view the outside, non-Mormon world. These are what Mormons are saying about Christians and other non-Mormons when our backs are turned.

How do you really know how someone feels about you? Find out what they say behind your back.



"We may very properly say that the sectarian world do not know anything correctly, so far as pertains to salvation. Ask them where heaven is?- where they are going to when they die?-where Paradise is! -and there is not a priest in the world that can answer your questions. Ask them what kind of a being our Heavenly Father is, and they cannot tell you so much as Balaam's ass told him. They are more ignorant than children." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 5, Page 229).


BRIGHAM SAYS: THERE WASN'T ANY IMMACULATE CONCEPTION - The Holy Ghost didn't "visit" upon the Virgin Mary; rather, God took a physical form and came to "know" Mary in the "biblical" sense of the word.

"I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost." (Brigham Young - Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 51).



"no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent.. (Brigham Young - Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p.282-91)


BRIGHAM SAYS: THEIR ARE MEN LIVING ON THE MOON - NASA must have just landed in the wrong areas during the Apollo program.

"Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?...when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain." (Brigham Young - Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 271)


WHITE HORSE PROPHECY OFFICIALLY DOESN'T EXIST - But Brigham Young predicts that Mormons will save America (the Constitution) from destruction.

Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, "The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction." It will be so.

With regard to the doings of our fathers and the Constitution of the United States, I have to say, they present to us a glorious prospect in the future, but one we cannot attain to until the present abuses in the Government are corrected. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol 7, pg 15)



"How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through. That course has been from all eternity, and it is and will be to all eternity. You cannot comprehend this; but when you can, it will be to you a matter of great consolation" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses Volume 7 page :334).



"The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like Himself; when we have been proved in our present capacity, and been faithful with all things He puts into our possession. We are created, we are born for the express purpose of growing up from the low estate of manhood, to become Gods like unto our Father in heaven. That is the truth about it, just as it is" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses Volume 3, page 93).


BRIGHAM SAYS: CHRISTIANS ARE LIKE A SHIP WITHOUT A RUDDER OR COMPASS - Lost and moving without direction or destination.

"The Christian world, I discovered, was like the captain and crew of a vessel on the ocean without a compass, and tossed to and fro whithersoever the wind listed to blow them. When the light came to me, I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 5, Page 73).


BRIGHAM SAYS: Mormons ARE Christians! It is Christians who AREN'T Christians.

"Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Brigham Young,
Journal of Discourses Volume 10, page 230).



"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" - (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 8, page 171


So what are Mormons saying BEHIND YOUR BACK?  These "I'm A Mormon" commercials are misleading.  If you really want to know a man, and his religion; what are they saying behind your back, unofficially.  We all know officially it is SPIN, politically-correct rhetoric.  I'll highlight another set of ten enlightenments each Sunday in this series.

Timothy Lee Unrine

Tuesday, July 3, 2012

Romney - Adoption or Excommunication for Single Mom

How much does Romney respect women?  Here is the infamous place your baby up for adoption or face possible excommunication.  I guess if she was a lesbian, he would have knocked her down and cut off her hair, but he showed restraint - just excommunication for non-compliance.
So much for Mormons being Family Friendly to single mothers.  Single mothers work hard, harder than stay-at-home moms most times.  And when the father isn't in the home, nor paying child support, a single mother wanting to love and raise her baby should be encouraged; not threatened - bad Romney, bad Mormon.

Three short paragraphs from: - I broke up the long paragraphs for easier reading online.

This is a very good expose on the antics of Mitt Romney that is well worth reading, I'm not high lighting one section on bullying a single mother to choose adoption or potential excommunication.

The Meaning of Mitt - by Michael Kranish and Scott Helman

By 1983, Hayes was 23 and back in the Boston area, raising a 3-year-old daughter on her own and working as a nurse’s aide. Then she got pregnant again. Single motherhood was no picnic, but Hayes said she had wanted a second child and wasn’t upset at the news. “I kind of felt like I could do it,” she said. “And I wanted to.”

By that point Mitt Romney, the man whose kids Hayes used to watch, was, as bishop of her ward, her church leader. But it didn’t feel so formal at first. She earned some money while she was pregnant organizing the Romneys’ basement. The Romneys also arranged for her to do odd jobs for other church members, who knew she needed the cash. “Mitt was really good to us. He did a lot for us,” Hayes said.

Then Romney called Hayes one winter day and said he wanted to come over and talk. He arrived at her apartment in Somerville, a dense, largely working-class city just north of Boston. They chitchatted for a few minutes. Then Romney said something about the church’s adoption agency.
Hayes initially thought she must have misunderstood. But Romney’s intent became apparent: he was urging her to give up her soon-to-be-born son for adoption, saying that was what the church wanted. Indeed, the church encourages adoption in cases where “a successful marriage is unlikely.”

(Author's paragraph break)

Hayes was deeply insulted. She told him she would never surrender her child. Sure, her life wasn’t exactly the picture of Rockwellian harmony, but she felt she was on a path to stability. In that moment, she also felt intimidated.

Here was Romney, who held great power as her church leader and was the head of a wealthy, prominent Belmont family, sitting in her gritty apartment making grave demands. “And then he says, ‘Well, this is what the church wants you to do, and if you don’t, then you could be excommunicated for failing to follow the leadership of the church,’ ” Hayes recalled.

It was a serious threat. At that point Hayes still valued her place within the Mormon Church. “This is not playing around,” she said. “This is not like ‘You don’t get to take Communion.’ This is like ‘You will not be saved. You will never see the face of God.’ ” Romney would later deny that he had threatened Hayes with excommunication, but Hayes said his message was crystal clear: “Give up your son or give up your God.”

(Author's paragraph break)

Not long after, Hayes gave birth to a son. She named him Dane. At nine months old, Dane needed serious, and risky, surgery. The bones in his head were fused together, restricting the growth of his brain, and would need to be separated. Hayes was scared. She sought emotional and spiritual support from the church once again.

Looking past their uncomfortable conversation before Dane’s birth, she called Romney and asked him to come to the hospital to confer a blessing on her baby. Hayes was expecting him. Instead, two people she didn’t know showed up.

She was crushed. “I needed him,” she said. “It was very significant that he didn’t come.” Sitting there in the hospital, Hayes decided she was finished with the Mormon Church. The decision was easy, yet she made it with a heavy heart. To this day, she remains grateful to Romney and others in the church for all they did for her family. But she shudders at what they were asking her to do in return, especially when she pulls out pictures of Dane, now a 27-year-old electrician in Salt Lake City. “There’s my baby,” she said.


Mitt, a pretty good bully to have in the White House, I have to wonder how many black eyes Ann suffered until she fell in line as a proper Mormon woman. - Timothy

Tuesday, June 26, 2012

Mormon Trolls Attempting To Censure Mormon Sex Scandals

Someone doesn't want this list on the internet, even though it was pulled from various internet sources.

I have posted this list three times on:

Why Many Mormons Are Fleeing

So why don't Mormons want a small list, and THIS is just a small list from an hours worth of time on Google, the tip of the iceberg on the Mormon Sex Scandals. So the problem must be worst than it is to have comments censured on the internet.

Mormons claim to be LED by Revelation - that Mormon God is pretty rusty on Revelation if he reveals that Shawn Merriman should be a Bishop - a ponzi scheme crook at the time that Revelation was revealed to pick Shawn as Bishop.

Mormon Revelation has chosen those sexual predators who represent offices in the church - a God-picked man who sexually assaults children. That is a faulty church, sticking to the grade school excuse of "I didn't do it; God did it"

False religion - definitely not a Christian religion.

I'm going to assume you are an intelligent, but for others, google Mormon Bishop, Mormon Bishop, LDS, Boy Scouts, molest, sex abuse and you can get a larger database of names that make the Catholic priests look like Saints.

But this is just a quick thirty minute list - the tip of the Mormon Iceberg of Sexually Abusing Children.

Lon Harvey Kennard, Mormon Bishop, sexually abusing up to six children

Eneudo Petit, Mormon Bishop, taking lessons from Joseph Smith, flees the jurisdiction, leaves the U.S. to avoid arrest for sodomy against a child and aggravated sexual abuse.

Timothy McCleve, Mormon Bishop, guilty of sexual abuse of children

John Baysen, Mormon Missionary, sentenced to 180 days in jail for molesting a girl and a young woman in his Ward.

Jack LaHolt, most notorious Mormon Scout Master for molesting boys, still has the record for the most molested.

Timur Dykes, Mormon Boy Scout leader, plead guilty to molesting 17 boy scouts.

Frank Curtis, Mormon Boy Scout leader and a Sunday School teacher, from 79 - 91 molested multiple boys in his leadership position in the Mormon church.

and let us not leave out the Relief Society

Susan Brock, sentenced to 13 years, along with her Relief Society daughter, for molesting (performing unwelcomed oral sex) on a 13 year old boy. I guess the boy wasn't into the
mother-daughter scenario.

Art Phillips, Mormon Sunday School teacher, fondling 15 year old girl, trying to take nude photos for child pornography.

Eric Patrick "Ricky" Avant, Mormon Boy Scout Leader, sentenced to 26 years for molesting boys over multiple years.

Richard Kenneth Ray, two different Mormon Bishops KNEW of Ray's past child sex crimes, but did not notify the Ward, or limit Ray's access to children. Sentenced to 61 years in prison, and the Mormon church settled out-of-court for it's knowledge and coverup.

Ryan Whitaker, Mormon Sunday School Teacher, sex with a 9 year old girl on Mormon Church property.

Just the tip of the iceberg, showing how most of these leaders come from callings whose names are given by revelation from the Mormon God.

So a Mormon Church is driven by Revelation from their Mormon God; mighty poor track record. Maybe if the Mormon God consulted the sex offender database the Mormon children wouldn't be exposed to so many perverts.

Monday, June 25, 2012

If Mormons Are Willing To Violate Their Own Articles Of Faith; Then How Can We Really Trust Romney To Obey The Presidential Oath Of Office?

The Dangers Of Electing A Mormon President.
This is how Mormons REALLY think behind your back.

Issue # 2                                                                                                                           June 25, 2012

If Mormons Are Willing To Violate Their Own Articles Of Faith; Then How Can We Really Trust Romney To Obey The Presidential Oath Of Office?

Joshy is a frequent Mormon Defender of the Faith on Yahoo Answers. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that Joshy is always right; just that he has many unsubstantiated opinions.
"Romney has said that it's a state's matter to decide [same-sex marriage], in other words, he would be allowing people to decide for themselves." (Unrine)
This would certainly prove that Romney values Mormon Article of Faith #11:
"We claim the priviledge of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our conscience, and allow all men the same priviledge, let them worship how, where, or what they may." (Friend)
As we shall see though this isn't the truth; Romney wants to take away from the states their right, as a state, to dictate their own state laws regarding marriage. Romney's own Senior Compaign Advisor, a Roman Catholic, Ed Gillespie, went on MSNBC's Daily Rundown, and stated Romney's position loud, and very clear:
"Romney will actively push for a Constitutional Amendment to take away rights of states to voluntarily extend marriage equality to same sex couples." (Isreal)
A Constitutional Amendment takes away not only a state's right to legislate marriage, but it denies that right to same-sex marriages to the people as well.

Joshy that is not "allowing people to decide for themselves." (Unrine)

Romney's very own words reveal his anti-same-sex-marriage attitude. While at the 2012 CPAC convention, Romney boldly proclaimed from the pulpit:
"On my watch we fought hard and prevented Massachusetts from turning into the Las Vegas of gay marriage." (Isreal)
So proud is Romney at this ability to contain the viral spread of the sinful same-sex marriage movement, that he made a similar comment when he said, while Governor, he was so consumed with worry that Massachusetts would become "San Francisco East." (Barbaro)

Romney Is Against Same-Sex Marriage AND Civil Unions.

Some people and organizations have proposed civil unions as a compromise to same-sex marriages; to give same-sex couples the same benefits as a marriage. There are problems associated with civil unions that federal laws would still have to work out - filing tax returns for instance. But this compromise has been ruled out by Mormon Romney:
"My view is the same as it's been from the beginning," Mr Romney told a CBS affiliate in Denver. "I don't favor civil unions, if it's identical to marriage, and I don't favor marriage between people of the same gender." (Barbaro)
When Romney was asked to explain why he isn't for civil unions, he expressed that he feels that civil unions are just marriage by another name.

Who Get Married? Who Conducts Marriages?
Who gets married? Atheists get married. Buddists get married. Wiccans get married. Many people get married, and many of those couples are not Christian. Marriage isn't a Christian religion event, like communion, marriage is a civil function available to the public; Christian and non-Christian alike.
"The marriage issue now in the United States is a legal/governmental matter. Listen carefully the next time you happen upon a ceremony, near the end of the religious or secular event the official will utter 'by the power invested in me by the state of (insert state), I now pronounce you..." commented Brian Hoover (Feiler)
Anyone desiring to be married goes to the local government to obtain a marriage license, then they find someone authorized by the state to perform the marriage, once the ceremony is complete, the authorized official completes the marriage license and files the license back with the local government which issued it.

Sometime later, twenty-four percent of Americans will seek a divorce. These individuals will hire attorneys, who file divorce papers in local divorce courts, which dissolve the marriage.

Nowhere is a religious organization required in the United States to perform a marriage. In some states, like Florida, any Notary Public is authorized to perform marriages.

What Are Mormons Thinking BEHIND Your Back?
Many Mormons apparently believe that same-sex marriages involve the homosexual couples consumating the marriage in the church ceremony.
"I'm sorry I didn't know homosexual activity was considered worship. I didn't know gays wanted to have sex in church. In fact none of the churches you have listed here practice homosexuality as part of their worship services." says J.P. on Yahoo Answers. (Unrine)
Same-sex marriage inititatives are not petitioning churches to allow same-sex marriage ceremonies in their churches. I suspect that many same-sex couples would be turned off by religion after being bashed by churches for so many years.

The same-sex marriage initiatives involve granting same-sex couples the right to get married to their partners, whether that marriage occurs in a church, chapel, court house, or in a local park. Same-sex marriage is not about religion, it's about individuals wanting to have the priviledges and rights afforded to heterosexual married couples.

Then along comes Erika Strass:
"This article of faith speaks about worship. Sexual relations between same sex are part of your worship?
"The Church does not interfere and never interfereed with the practice of worship of any religion. However we are not neutral with respect to gay marriage. We have a firm stance against this practice! Homosexuality is not a religion . .. .at least not yet!" (Unrine)

Article 11 claims Mormons "have the priviledge of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same priviledge, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

Erika makes a strange claim. Erika asks if homosexual sex is a part of my worship? A part of same-sex marriage worship? Erika would be surprised if she went to a Metropolitan Community Church service - Erika, members of the MCC worship God and Jesus Christ, members of the MCC wear clothes to services, most not suits and ties, but they are more modern and dress casually.

Sorry Erika, but there is no gay sex in the aisles.

Homosexual sex is as much a part of worship in "gay" churches, as heterosexual sex is in a Mormon church. But by denying the MCC the ability to perform marriages for it's same-sex couples - Mormons ARE violating their own Article Eleven, and interfering in the MCC's religious faith of being inclusive of the LGBT community.

Behind your back, Romney's Mormons are being taught, in church, or out of church, that same-sex marriages involve sex in the church. That homosexual sex is a religion.

Probably from the same Propaganda Ministers would claim that pedophiles are largely homosexuals. Where the truth, as reported by the National Institutes of Health, is that there are eleven heterosexual pedophiles for every one homosexual pedophile. (Freud)

There are many Christians whose sexual orientation is homosexual. That doesn't mean they worship homosexual sex any more than heterosexual couples worship sex in their own churches. Sexual orientation is an orientation; not a religion as Mormon bigotry is portraying.

This is cause to VOTE NO for a Mormon in the White House. Romney supports banning same-sex marriages and civil unions. Romney, while careful in his speeches, was a high ranking Mormon, so most likely shares Erika's and J.P.'s misperception of sex in the aisles of 'gay' churches.

Previous Issues:
#1 -

Barbaro, Micheal, "Romney Reaffirming Opposition To Marriage, Or Unions For Gay Couples," New York Times, May 9,2012.

Feiler, Bruce, "Hate Speech From The Pulpit," Here & Now 90.9 wbur, Jun 7, 2012.

Freud, K, & Watson, R.J., "The proportions of heterosexual and homosexual pedophiles among sex offenders against children: an exploratory study," National Institutes of Health, 1992.

Isreal, Josh, "Romney Adviser Gillespie Constitutional Marriage Ban," Think Progress, May 10, 2012.

Unrine, Timothy L., "If Mormons Violate Their Own 11th Of Their Articles Of Faith?, Yahoo Answers, June 2012.

Tuesday, June 19, 2012

Mormon Church Does Pull Romney's Strings

There are bigger issues than just Romney's 'economics."

The Romneyites are quick to point out that Mormon Romney is facing the same challenge
to his faith that JFK's Catholicism faced.  However, Romney and JFK are in two different
spheres of church participation.

John F Kennedy was baptized a Catholic, and comes from a devout Catholic family (if we
ignore adultery and other sex-related indiscretions).  However, JFK's church participation
level is where most of us are:  Pew-sitter. 

To ease tension, Kennedy gave his famous speech on religion and politics in Houston
during his presidential campaign.

"I believe in a president whose views on religion are his own private affair, neither
imposed by him upon the nation or imposed by the nation upon him as a conditionto
holding that office," announced Kennedy.  (Greenberg)

Now "when asked if the Vatican had approved his statement, Kennedy said that no such
approval was necessary.  When asked what he would do if church officials tried to
influence his position on a matter of policy, he said in effect he would tell the clerics to
butt out."  (Greenberg)

Shortly you will see the contrast to Romney flying to Salt Lake City to have council with the
Mormon leaders.

Tricia Erickson comments on this:

"Just how committed is Mitt Romney to his Mormon faith?  Mitt Romney was a graduate of
Brigham Young University and a Mormon Missionary.  He was promoted twice on his
mission to Missionary Zone Leader and Assistant to the Mission President.  Mitt also
became a Mormon Bishop and later a Stake President, presiding over a dozen Mormon
churches.  You cannot get more Mormon than that."  (Erickson)

Well I might add in that the Romneys are the equivalent of the American Mayflower
families.  As the Romneys have ancestors who were with the orginal pioneers with
Brigham Young as he settled in the Salt Lake Valley.  Also, the Romneys have an ancestor
who was a Mormon Apostle.

Mitt also was home with Daddy when the current prophet frequented the Michigan home
of the Romneys while he was an Apostle.  The last prophet was a high school pal of Daddy, and frequented the Romney home.

This is a lot of exposure to Mormonism, and the very top leadership of Mormonism.  Much
more than just a pew-sitter as Kennedy.

Pew-sitter versus all of the above.  Who is more influenced by his church?

Kennedy promised that the Pope would not control his Administration.  But what about
Romney?  What does Romney's political history prove?

From as early as 1994 through his failed Senate campaign to defeat Ted Kennedy, Romney
made frequent trips to Salt Lake City to consult with the upper level leaders of the church.
 Romney made so many trips that he became an irritant to his old time family friend,
Hinckley (the last prophet), that R.B. Scott, a Romney campaign worker quoted him as saying his many visits were "a little tiresome."  (Barrett)

"These repeated visits raise questions about just how much the ever flexible Romney has
customized his social policy views to satisfy - even temporarily - the Mormon church." 

"While we cannot know exactly what Romney discussed with church elders in the
meetings, the disquieting and under-reported side of this saga is that he made several
more vetting trips to Salt Lake City than John Kennedy ever made to Rome."  (Barrett)

"I went to his office and I congratulated him on taking a pro-choice position.  And his
response was - Well they told me in Salt Lake City I could take this position, and in fact I
probably had to in order to win a liberal state like Massachusetts. . . . I said, Mitt, it
doesn't make me happy to hear that.  What you're suggesting is that you're not genuinely
pro-choice.  It's a position of convenience," told Judy Dushku, a Mormon feminist, after
talking to Romney after a 1994 visit to Salt Lake City.  (Saletan)

How much control would the Pope have over Catholic Kennedy?  He kept his word, and the
Pope had no influence in the Oval Office.

How much control would the Utah prophet have over Mormon Romney?  Immense control.

"But even if he (Romney) kept his faith completely private, the election of a Mormon
president would, ipso facto, swathe Mormonism into respectability that it has long
coveted."  (Gibson)


Barrett, Wayne, "Biographer Recounts Romney's Many Trips To Mormon Church To Discuss 
Social Issues,"  The Daily Beast, May 11, 2012.

Erickson, Tricia, "A Mormon America, Brought To You By Mitt Romney," Christian News

Gibson, David, "Why Mitt Romney Can't Be The Mormon JFK," Huffington Post, Jan 25,    

Greenberg, David, "How Santorum Misunderstands Kennedy's Catholic Speech," George    
Mason University's:  History News Network, Feb 28, 2012.

Saletan, William, "The Conversion: How, when, and why Mitt Romney changed his mind on 
abortion," SLATE, Feb 22, 2012.

Wednesday, June 13, 2012

If Mormons don't use the Christian Cross for worship or anything due to idol worship,?

I posed another a question on Yahoo Answers and again only maneuvers to evade to the question by Mormon responders:

[Please forgive the formatting, transferring Yahoo Answers format to blogspot creates line breaks that I can't control or fix with editing.]

If Mormons don't use the Christian Cross for worship or anything due to idol worship,

And if Mormons went to World War II in large numbers, then how were Mormons buried?

I visited many American War Cemetaries in France in the 80s, I seen the Cross graves, I
seen many Star of David graves.

Where were the Mormon graves if Mormons served in large numbers? Or don't Mormons

After countless internet searches, I had just as many 'hits' if I would have searched for
Martian gravestones in American WWII cemetaries in France.

Now current policy, uses the headstones familiar in Arlington National Cemetary, and
many religions have authorized symbols which can be displayed on the top portion of the

However, no references as to why only Crosses for Catholics and Protestants, and the Star
of David for Jewish, are the only headstones in WWII overseas military battlefield

So the question is still opened, and unanswered, where are the Mormons buried if they
served in great numbers in WWII? Or did the magic underwear allow 100 percent of
Mormon servicemen to return home?

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Answered by: Steve O

Mormons like Romney and his father escaped to other countries to avoid the military

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Answered by:  Ammon

The Movie Private Ryan is a Movie that is based on a family that had five sons. Four of
them died in combat in World War II. The fifth son was ordered by executive order to not
be in the military.

The family that the movie Private Ryan is based on...

is Mormon.

Mormons bleed. Mormons bleed and have bled in combat for this country, the United

States of America. And they bled in the Viet Nam War, and the Korean War, and they bled
in World War I and World War II.

Saddam Hussein was captured in a ditch in Iraq, by a Mormon who was a private third class

in the Army at the time, and he hunted Saddam Hussein down like a blood hound on a blood trail, until he found him, and took him into custody.

Mormons are the most highly mobilized group of people in the United States during war

time. That has been so for over one hundred years. Chat.
Response by Timothy:

Ask a question about why or where the Mormon graves of WWII are, and a Mormon
answers with a movie plot - like the Book of Mormon - work of fiction.

A Mormon found Saddam Hussein - no reports in papers - like Moroni, he appeared in the

I guess it was an All-Mormon SEAL team which captured/killed Osama Bin Laden too?

Lying for the Lord is alive and well for Mormons; for us Christians - Prov 12:22 applies.
Ammon I do agree, you are right, Mormons in wartime are highly mobile - Romney
mobilized to France afterall. Have I forgotten any of your misinformation from your
answer, or rather SPIN?

Now I do see a Mormon propaganda site lists corporal Harold Engstrom U.S. Army (active),
a corporal, corporals usually have served around two to four years - if they are good, they
make sergeant by then, but a Corporal and one other individuals put together the
intelligence report leading to the capture of nearly all the villians on the deck of cards?

Really? A corporal assigned to such an important task?

Private Third Class, United States Army, is that a Mormon rank, that would explain in ten
years on Active Duty I never met a Mormon Private Third Class.

Private (E-1 No stripe) - Private (E-2 One Stripe) - Private First Class - Specialist -
Sergeant - if you want to make up ranks,use the internet to research your story better.
Mormons are great story tellers, Joe Smith's whole life was as a story teller.

******     ******     *****     *****     *****

Answered by:  Zuboko

The cross is a symbol of the death of Christ. We choose to focus on the resurrection of
Christ. On most of our chapels and many of our temples you will see spires those spires
are a symbol of the resurrection of Christ and the promise of resurrection to all of us.

As far as the rest of your questions, don't know don't care.

Response by Timothy:

Zuboko - you should care, where were the Mormons in WWII? I know they wouldn't be
buried with crosses or stars of david, and in the cemetaries of France I seen only two
types of markers, crosses and stars of david.

Archeologists hundreds of years from now would have to conclude no Mormons died in
WWII, that Mormons must be like Quakers - pacifists who refuse to fight in wars.

So Romney is indeed a Mormon Poster Child - never went to war, dodge the draft
knocking on doors, another Mormon avoids a war, it's Mormon geneaology it seems.
[This is a typical Mormon response trained to Mormon Missionaries under the Lying for
the Lord doctrine.  If a Mormon doesn't like the question which is asked, the Mormon will
give an answer to something else, unrelated to the embarrassing question.  Romney uses
this Mormon Lying for the Lord doctrine frequency in his TV interviews.  Timothy]

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Answered by:  Bork

We don't use or wear the cross, but I think most of us could not care less if there is a cross
on our grave. Want to put a cross on my grave? Go for it. Whatever... :-)

When a pet dies we bury it in the back yard under a pine tree. And we sometimes put a
cross on the grave. It is, after all, a symbol of death, and it seems somewhat appropriate
to put it on a grave where it belongs. This is not a Mormon thing, btw, it's just what we do.

And I have not clue where wwii mormons are buried...or what is on their's not

really that high on my list of things that keeps me up at night.

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Answered by:  aaron

Mormons are far from absent in the military. As a Mormon Marine I take offense in you
saying that Mormons run and hide from the fight I know plenty of Mormons who have
served in wars from wwII to Vietnam and Mormons who continue to serve in conflicts to
this day. As far as what is on our graves if you are asking about overseas graves of wwII
you would probably find Mormons buried under a cross if you go to a local national
cemetery you'd find some buried with no religious symbol and others buried with a
symbol of an angel blowing a trumpet. I would challenge you to open your eyes more to
the service of Mormons in the military we might not run around screaming look at me I'm
a Mormon in the military but there are more of us out there then you'd think

******     ******     *****     *****     *****

Answered by: Dena K

Dude, do you really have so little of a life that you really think any of us care about your
anti-Mormon bulls**t.

Before you starting criticizing Mormons who served in the military, why don't you get off

your couch and serve. I'm willing to bet that if the only person who saves your sorry butt
in combat is a Mormon you wouldn't be so stupid as to spew your propaganda.

Go play in the Religion and Spirituality section.


Former Marine

Response by Timothy:

Dena - apparently Mormons do care, or you wouldn't be on the message board. So no no
one wants the question answered, about where would Mormons be buried on WWII
American Cemetaries, when only two types of headstones are available in France for
American deaths - the Cross and the Star of David - neither would a Mormon be caught
dead under.

I guess it isn't just the Romney's who don't serve, and hide behind Minister of Religion
deferments. I see his five "brave" boys are the Poster Children of the Poster Child Mormon
Mitt Romney - a ten year long "patriotic" war - but no Romney boy serving - like Father
like Child; like Mormon men.

Dena - Mormons do attack - the messenger not the message. So far, no Mormon has said
where the Mormon dead are buried on WWII battlefields, why are Mormons absent.
Mormons don't worship the cross so it isn't logical that Mormons would be buried without
the church and families complaining about having one buried under a Cross headstone.

As to serving I served ten years - I served and won we won the war on my watch in 1991.
We can't say the same about the current Iraq/Afghan fiasco, a repeat of Vietnam.

Which as long as we are talking Vietnam. The other question I posed was why Black
Mormon Men had to serve in Vietnam during the draft era, while White Mormon Men
could put in for Minister of Religion deferments? Blacks being denied the priesthood, that
discrimination put black Mormons on battlefields of Vietnam while White Mormons like
Romney knocked on doors in safety.

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Answered by:  rrosskop...

I am LDS. Many LDS soldiers lie buried under crosses. We find it a bit morbid to
concentrate on the mode of Jesus's execution; so we don't wear crosses. We are fully
aware of how much evil men can do. We prefer to imagine the resurrected Christ, who
directs our church today through revelation. We look forward to his return to earth, and
have carried out his instructions in order to prepare the earth for his return.

You are quick to call us liars, but speaking for myself, I have never found a more truthful

people. Faith-promoting rumors do exist, but I imagine them to be just as prevalent in
other religions and even among atheists. I've certainly heard enough of them. Anti-
mormon propaganda is filled with unfounded accusations, many of which have long since
been proven false. People want to believe whatever makes life easier for them, or makes
them feel smarter or better than others.

Response by Timothy:

rroskop - you are only 'hoping' that we would believe that a Mormon church, a Mormon
family would allow a family member who is Mormon to forever laid to rest under the cross
- which isn't displayed on your church, in your church, or in jewelry by your Mormon

But you want us to believe Mormons in WWII would be buried under crosses in American
cemetaries overseas which used crosses and stars of david. Nice try, but not an answer.
rroskop - you are right about Mormons don't believe that they lie, with Lying for the Lord
doctrine, Mormons can "lie" with immunity of sin, if it furthers their cause of Mormonism.
Like your response.

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Answered by Mormon_4:

They would no doubt be buried with a cross on their grave.

BTW, in WWII, there were, I'm told, LDS on both sides.

Response by Timothy:

Mormon_4 your answer goes against the Mormon beliefs and doctrines.

Mormons who discourage using the cross as jewelry (usually a problem with recent converts), the Mormons have no crosses on their churches, or inside their churches.

So it comes to reasons that Mormons would not stand to have their dead buried under a Cross gravestone, when Jewish dead have their own Star of David.

So why aren't there Mormon gravesites in France and Belgium WWII American cemetaries?

*****     *****     *****     *****

Answer by Doc:

As near as I can tell Mormon soldiers are buried under crosses. This appears to be a case of Army thinking. They wanted a uniform appearance to the grave sites. If you weren't Jewish then a Latin Cross was good enough for you, whatever your religion. There is the perception that a cross is the universal symbol for graves, with the exception of graves for Jews. But, I wasn't able to see that spelled out exactly.

"Stars of David mark graves of Jewish soldiers, all others have a Latin Cross."…That would include markers for unknown soldiers.

"A white marble headstone marks each grave - a Star of David for those of the Jewish faith; and a Latin Cross for all others"
I'm a Mormon, and it doesn't bother me for a Mormon soldier to be buried under a cross. Mormons prefer not to use crosses to mark their chapels, but they have no aversion to a cross.

Response by Timothy:

Doc - This doesn't even seem logical.  If I had an ancestor buried under the Star of David, and not a Cross (ancestors largely Catholic) there would be an uproar to correct the massive error.


Gospel Questions: Why Don't Mormons Use Crosses?
by Tristi Pinkston |

When you enter an LDS church, you won't see any crosses. They do not adorn our temples, we do not wear them around our necks or decorate our homes with them.

Why not? Isn't the cross the universal symbol of a Christian faith? Doesn't this mean that Mormons aren't Christians?

Mormons are most definitely Christians, but we have a specific reason for not using the cross.
We are so deeply, eternally grateful to Jesus Christ for His atoning sacrifice and subsequent crucifixion. We profoundly feel the impact of His saving grace in our lives and we contemplate the pain He endured in our behalf, knowing that we could never do what He did. He was the only One who could accomplish such a mission, because of the depth of His love for us, His overwhelming charity, and His deep desire to see us become exalted in the last day.

Back to me:  So given this level of aversion to wearing and displaying the cross, it isn't reasonable to believe that Mormons would permit their members to be buried in WWII French and Belgium cemetaries under a Cross; more than my family would allow a WWII ancestor to be buried under the Star of David.

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Answered by: Grela LaTuc

Sorry to disappoint you but there are LDS (Mormons) buried all over Europe. The Church's membership is world wide. And the living LDS normally do not wear crosses, and the chapels are were the living go. The temples do not have crosses because, again, the living go there. We, however, do no have an aversion to the cross for the dead, there are a lot of LDS soldiers buried at Arlington and other Military cemeteries. And they have crosses on their headstones.

Response by Timothy:

Well your position is unsupportive by your former prophet who spoke up about the use of the Cross, and why Mormons don't use the cross.


Why don’t Mormons wear crosses?

 Gordon B. Hinckley, a previous prophet of the Mormon church, was asked by a minister why there were no crosses on or in the Mesa, Arizona Mormon temple. He answered, “I do not wish to give offense to any of my Christian colleagues who use the cross on the steeples of their cathedrals and at the altars of their chapels, who wear it on their vestments, and imprint it on their books and other literature. But for us, the cross is the symbol of the dying Christ, while our message is a declaration of the Living Christ.” (Gordon B. Hinckley, “The Symbol of Our Faith,” Ensign, Apr 2005, 2-6)
Back to me:

Mormons won't display a cross on their earthly temples, on the meeting houses, on their persons - but you expect us to believe Mormons would tolerate the government burying the Mormons under a Christian Cross?

Probably the government performing Christian proxy baptisms on the Mormons soldiers, to make sure they go to Christian heaven.

Death being a transition between the mortal and immortal worlds, and a designation of the location of the mortal body, for a Mormon to have his WWII grave marked with a Cross makes as much sense as a Jewish soldier being buried under a Cross, or a Catholic under a Star of David.

Besides rhetoric, anything to back up your Mormon approved position?  Amazing that the internet is rather silent on the subject, which generally indicated lack of a subject - in this case Mormon graves.

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Answered by joshsy

Whenever I see your picture beside a question I know I'm in for something epically stupid.

You didn't disappoint!

So apparently because the military doesn't have a special tombstone with Moroni on it that means that no Mormon has ever died in military service. Interesting theory. My dad was an LDS church leader, he served in the armed forces; both grandparents served, both captured, one survived Bataan, one escaped through Dunkirk, and the majority of our current church leaders served.

Clearly you have no clue to about the support and respect that the Mormon church gives to the military, and the gratitude and recognition given back.

Mormon's have no aversion to the cross (the earliest temples had crosses on top), yet we choose not to use it as a symbol of Christ as we would rather remember that He lives rather than how He died.

[Read Gordon B Hinckley's response to Crosses, and your level of Mormon leadership, compared to his, gives him more clout.  From reading his quote in the above response, Mormons won't place Crosses on Temples, Meeting Houses, inside their own houses, wear cross jewelry - but YOU want us to believe Mormon would accept having the symbol that they don't USE placed above a Mormon grave.  Judge Judy says it best:  If it doesn't make sense, then it's a lie.  Maybe she knows of Lying for the Lord of Mormonism.]

I'm just curious - when you die, let's assume you get eaten by worms because that's biblical and would be a fine end to you, do you think that your relatives will remember you by wearing a small worm around their neck?

[Avoiding an embarrassing topic, by using the Mormon tactic of changing the subject.  Since my parents have no aversions to worms, then it would be OK.  But Mormons have more aversion to Crosses than a Vampire.]

Sorry for the dig, I just don't enjoy the constant mocking about not wearing a cross by a guy who likely has a fish on his car.

[Mormon White Boy superiority coming across their Joshy?  Explains why in the other question I posed was why Black Mormon men were denied equal access by the Mormons to Minister of Religion exemptions for the Vietnam draft.  White Mormon denied Blacks equal access, more so probably due to the quota system.  The Draft Board in each locale only allowed for so many deferments for the Mormons, why would White Mormons waste a deferment on a Black man?  Bigotry in Salt Lake for sure.]

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Answered by Kerry

You sound full of hatred. That is the antithesis of Christianity.

Response by Timothy:

"Let us examine our ways and test them, and let us return to the Lord."  Lamentation 3:40 NIV

"Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you."  1 John 3:13 NIV

Following the commands of Gal 1:5-6, 2 Tim 4:2-5, and 2 Pet 2:1-3, just a few of many scripture commands to protect Christianity from the diversions of man - whether it be Constantine, his church councils, the Pope, or Mormonism.

Or maybe in the simplest terms:

"He who rebukes a man will in the end gain more favor than he who has a flattering  tongue."  Proverbs 28:23 NIV

Rebuking false doctrines and the itchy ears following false teachers has three types of rebukes.  Much like fishing.  On the slow but steady approach, you use a hook and line, and cast your line and wait; results are not usually fast or abundant.

Another fisherman uses a net.  More effort involved, the results are more than using just a fishing line and hook. 

Then there is the extreme, using dynamite thrown in the water, kills many fish and you scoop up the bounty with relatively little effort, with very fast results.

Evangelizing to apostates of Christianity takes the same three types of fishermen.

But it isn't hate, it is the love of Christ wanting all his lost sheep (mormons) to return to Christianity.

Tuesday, June 12, 2012

Why did Black Mormons have to get drafted for Vietnam, while White Mormons were given deferments?

I offered a legimate question via Yahoo Answers, and almost immediately the Mormon Defenders of the Faith come out with the Mormon spin on the question:

Why did Black Mormons have to get drafted for Vietnam, while White Mormons were given deferments?
One of the convenient factors ignored by the ruling White Elite MEN of the Mormon high leadership, is that White Mormon Men, by having the priesthood, could claim Minister of Religion for a deferment from fighting in Vietnam.

While if you were a Black Mormon man, there was no such deferment for them, since the Mormons consider blacks inferior, and withheld the priesthood from blacks. Without having the priesthood, Blacks were not eligible for Mormon draft deferments.

There are enough stories on the internet of "individuals" who weren't even regular members of the Mormon church, sons of devout Mormons, but once they received a low draft number, all of a sudden, those white boys were qualified for Mormon deferments - all the while black Mormons had to fight and die as a PROXY for the White Mormon boys.

Convenient, racist, but has the Mormon cult changed? Why are there no blacks that are rich enough, faithful enough, educated enough, to be included in the First Presidency, the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, or the Presiding Bishopric?

So the questions are:

1. Why did the Mormons allow Black Mormons to fight and die in Vietnam, while it was optional for the White Mormon boys?

2. Why hasn't the Mormon cult apologized for it's racist policy that allowed Black Mormon men to fight and die, all the while it protected it's special White Mormon boys?

3. Does the lack of black representation even today, after 34 years since blacks were given the priesthood, go to demonstrate that the Mormons are determined to maintain it's Elite White Boy Only Club?

Additional Details [added after questions began]

I really didn't expect so many MORMON RACIST responses blaming the government for allowing white Mormon priesthood holders to gain deferments for the draft.

Blacks can not hold the priesthood during the Vietnam War - didn't realize the U.S. gov't decided on who get priesthood in the Mormon cult.

Since White Mormon men were the only ones with priesthood, how is it the government's fault for only processing white mormon men for deferments as Ministers of Religion?

I see the RACIST MORMONS are still in charge of the cult.

No rational mind can blame the U.S. government for not processing any deferments for Minister of Religion for Mormons, when the Mormon Church WOULD ONLY send in applications for deferments for WHITE MORMON.

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Answer From: Agent Sixty Three

My turn on the soapbox, move.

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Answer From:Jimmie

Probably because there were no black mormons at that time? ya, no?

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Answer From:Springs

It isn't their fault. God told them to do it like that. It's never their fault.

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Answer From:Raven Lunatic

Your question is without basis and you are too intentionally ignorant to notice that?

This is governmental policy - not LDS. As joshsy..said we didn't run the war department. I suggest you read his and phrog's answers closely so that you might have a better understanding of exactly what you got so wrong. And since it seems to be quote the phrog day....I'm going with "educate yourself by reading a book....might I suggest the BoM."

[Raven - how is a church ordaining it's members a government policy?  Mormons ordained only White Men for priesthood, and only priesthood holders could become Mormon Missionaries - church policy NOT the government policy.   So black Mormon Men were denied the opportunity to even submit applications for deferment for the governmnent to approve; because according to church policy of withholding priesthood from Black Mormon Men, they weren't able to participate in the Minister of Religion exemption from the draft.  Timothy]

[Raven - you are correct in that Mormons didn't run the War Department, but the War Department was renamed in the same legislation that created the Central Intelligence Agency, the National Security Act of 1947 - well before American involvement in Vietnam.  Timothy]

[Raven - I make it a point to not read any fiction, I stick to non-fiction.  Lots of religious history, U.S. history, and books on hiking and camping,  The Book of Mormon falls in the fiction category.  Timothy]

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Answer From:Fly on the wall

The draft boards that handled the deferments were local, not national. You can bet that in Utah in the 1960s, they were all Mormons both locally and the state level.

Overall numbers came from DC, but individual decisions were made LOCALLY for each man. And the Mormon church lobbied for its deferment quotas.

Missionaries only serve 2 years. They aren't ministers. These guys are only 19 and do not have great value to running a religion like an actual pastor.

[Fly on the Wall - let's not argue terminology.  Ministers of Religion was the U.S. government's category for the deferment, which would include Priests, Pastors, Missionaries, and any possible minister of religion title to evade the draft, defering to the First Amendment where the government doesn't get involved in defining who is a minister for each religion.  Timothy]

Drafted in '65. In Utah.

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Answer From:phrog

deferment for religious purposes was a concession of THE GOVERNMENT - not the LDS church.

Phrog - a half truth is a full lie.  Yes, the deferments were official U.S. government functions, to aid religious organizations.  But no, the LDS was involved in the process.  The LDS Church:

1.  Determines who gets the priesthood, which is required for Temple Recommends, which is a requirement to be a missionary.  Let me clue you - Blacks were denied the priesthood by the LDS church; not the U.S. government.

2.  Determines who it will sign off on as having approval for submitting for Minister of Religion deferment.  The churches of all the religions had to have religious leaders sign off on the deferment application, authorizing the government to consider the application for deferment.  Since blacks were denied the priesthood by the LDS church, applications may have been submitted by a black man, would not have been approved by a Bishop or Stake President for a Minister of Religion exemption - lacking priesthood, temple recommend, and not being a missionary.

What role did the government play?  After too many deferments for White Mormon men were being submitted, the government established quotas for each state.  SO it is true, some White Mormon men might not get a draft deferment based on government quotas.

However, the United States Government has never received an LDS-church approved application for a Black Mormon Man to receive a Minister of Religion deferment during the Vietnam War.  The Government can not approve or disapprove any application that the LDS church never submits. Timothy]

so your whole premise is incorrect - as well as your following assertions.

[How exactly?  I just broke down your rhetoric.  Timothy]

~the LDS do NOT "consider blacks inferior"

[There are enough internet entries detailing how the Mormon church considered the Black race inferior, google for results.  Timothy]

~soldiers were selected by draft numbers ALSO run by the government NOT the LDS church

[Back to the above, both White Mormon Men and Black Mormon Men were issued draft numbers by the U.S. government - CORRECT, but a half truth answer is a full lie.  The other truth is that the government can not exempt a Black Mormon Man from the draft because the LDS church refused to accept Black Mormon Men as priesthood holders, temple worthy missionaries.  Timothy]

1. the "mormons" didn't "allow" anyone to fight and die - war and the draft are functions of the government

[Mormon did allow Black Mormon Men to be drafted and die, while it exempted White Mormon Men from the draft to knock on doors as Minister of Religion - a church function which sent black men to fight in Vietnam, while White Mormons had a back door to not get shot at by the Viet Cong.  Timothy]

2. since it was not their "policy" what exactly do you want an apology for

[For all the Black Mormon Men whose names are engraved on the Wall in Washington D.C.; sent to war as Mormons, considered inferior by White Mormons who were allowed exemptions not to fight.  That yellow backbone and all.  Timothy]

3. they have representation - we ALL have representation. we are His children, and race does not play into that. there are a lot of black LDS members and I don't doubt for a second that eventually there will be leaders progress, like joseph sitati.

[After 34 years, and many new Apostles and Presiding Bishopric - but not one Black Mormon Man is educated more, financially secured more, faithful more, than all the White Men chosen in front of them.  I could understand if this was ten years later, but 34 years later shows discrimination.  Timothy]

your hatred and intolerance serve only you....but I find it interesting that you paint with a brush of such hatred while accusing the same. way to keep the hate alive.

[Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself.  Proverbs 26:4 NIV - some points of yours speak well for themselves.  Timothy]

edit: LOL

but I am NOT a "true white mormon man".....and no amount of judgment from the likes of you is going to change that.

actually - ALL the LDS church had to do was follow the commands of God....which they did. you don't like that? take it up w/Him. you think that's racist? get to your knees - you know who you can talk to about it.

[Blame God for discrimination against Black Mormon men.  "So God created man in his own image" Genesis 1:27 NIV]

I answered the question the best it could be answered is impossible to answer when your question is based in an incorrect forum, as it is. this deferment is a governmental deferment - not one determined by the LDS....but by the individual and his government. and while I will agree that there were likely no blacks submitted during a SPECIFIC time frame, they were not 100% white either. you don't like it --- good thing you weren't LDS in the time prior to 1978 then. and there were plenty who did not defer for a mission but instead served in the military - our own prophet being one....just in case you wanted to next claim that we don't hold them in esteem for not going on a mission instead. you speak in circles alot about issues you have absolutely no knowledge and tons of inerrant opinion. but then you have already shown that your main objective is to obfuscate in hopes that some will not see thru to the truth due to your silly smoke screens. so good luck w/that.

[As a White Mormon I can see how you can't acknowledge a Black Mormon was denied an opportunity to live in the era of Vietnam, but was discriminated against by the Mormons church, which put Black Mormons in the draft without a Minister of Religion exemption submitted by the LDS church for the government to approve.  Afterall, approving one Black Mormon Man for a Minister of Religion exemption would take away one more slot from the White Mormon Man with the established quota system in place.  Timothy]

there are no secrets here - and no questions we fear the asking of....bring it on. it won't change a will still be the prejudicial bigot you have oft shown yourself to be.

[I agree with you wholeheartedly here - the Mormons "won't change a thing."  No wonder why Obama was chastised by Romney by spending one year less at Harvard than Romney did.  Romney and his Mormons feel that Blacks should not hold the priesthood, should not attend Harvard, and definitely should be out of the Oval Office, unless Obama is the night janitor vacuuming the rugs.  Timothy]

you, sir, are an extremely poor representation of humanity, let alone christianity...but those are YOUR choices and I'm totally on board with you making them and enjoying their consequences. you have that right. just as does any other human being on the planet now or then or to come. you are not my judge, nor are you theirs. in short - be gone. you have no power here.

[How do you define poor representation?  To acknowledge that black, whites, hispanics, asians, and any other race or ethnic group should all have Christ's love?  Christ didn't just offer salvation to the White Man after all.  Timothy]

My Response To phrog - spoken like a true white mormon man defending the honor of his own cowardice.

All the Mormon church had to do, was give equal rights to life to blacks, then blacks could have the same opportunity to defer the draft to Vietnam.

You failed to answer the question - deflected the blame at the U.S. gov't - when the U.S. gov't didn't give quotas for one white for every one black man - - but processed exactly what was submitted for deferment for Minister of Religion

Those Mormon submissions for draft dodging was 100 percent WHITE MORMON YOUTH - not one black man. That is a racist Mormon cult policy, not a government initiative.

Good try at propaganda though.

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Answer From:joshsy

Are you seriously suggesting that the LDS church ran the war department?

[Never said the LDS church ran the War Department, which was dissolved in 1947 though, and transformed into the Department of Defense.  LDS church's role was to submit names for Minister of Religion exemptions - which they submitted only White Mormon Men.  The "war department" can only approve or disapprove what the LDS church submits, which weren't Black Mormons.  Timothy]

And as far as a white's only church - are you aware that as a Caucasian I'm a minority in my religion?

[Minority based on population worldwide, but if that is the case, and I don't doubt with Africa and South/Central America, then the non-Whites should be represented better on the First Presidency and the Quorum of Twelve Apostles.  Minority whites, as you say, shouldn't be the only First Presidency, Apostles and Presiding Bishopric.  White Mormons don't want to lose control of the LDS church to non-white Mormons, and they have built a structure to guarantee that control.  Timothy]

There are lots of black LDS leaders today, and as the church expands there are more and more minorities in high leadership positions. Those positions don't change every afternoon so that doesn't happen overnight - however if you'd listen to the names of the new leaders announced you'd notice that when they are read (by a man born in Germany rather than the US) the majority of them are not English names.

[We were talking the upper management, the Board of Directors of Mormon inc., the First Presidency, the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, the Presiding Bishopric - all WHITE MEN.  Timothy]

The first black LDS general authority was called in 1836, as a small new religion in slave country the LDS church had a black general authority 50 years before the first black catholic priest was called in Chicago. If you go to Africa the entire leadership is black; if you go to a ward half black and half white then half the leadership is black. If you look in Utah where there aren't a lot of black people then surprise surprise, most of the leadership is white.

[So if a black man was a General Authority in 1836, what did the blacks do to have the Mormon God take their priesthood authority away?  Why hasn't a black man progressed up to being an Apostle?  Oh, I answered - black man.  Timothy]

You're way off base with your comments and your suggestions are far fetched.

My Response To: Joshy - same as above - the War Dept/Dept of Defense did not process applications for Minister of Religion of based on race.

The Mormons refused to allow blacks the priesthood, citing inferior race and God withholds the priviledge.

This refusal to have black priesthood holders, prevented black Mormons from having an equal opportunity to gain draft deferments, and safely knock on doors for Mormonism.

The gov't had nothing to do with sending black mormons to war - both white and black mormons had to register for the draft - equal treatment by the gov't

However, the Mormons only submitted white Mormons for draft deferments as Ministers of Religion.

So black Mormons had to die, while White Superior-to-Black Mormons had the option to knock on the doors safely out of a war zone. That is a church racist policy.

Not a government policy. But I see I hit the sore spot - the well kept secret, the question that wasn't supposed to be asked.

But if asked, blame the U.S. government for the policy.

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Answer From:royalbir...

I have many relatives who were drafted to fight in Vietnam who also happen to be white Mormon men who did not defer. While I'm not arguing that deferring the draft was possibly a choice (I honestly have no idea because I just haven't paid much attention to that particular detail of history), it seems to me that many Mormon white men still fought when they were drafted. Unless they were leaders in the LDS Church, which then it would make sense to defer the draft due to their other responsibilities, just as other clergy members of other religions I'm sure were also doing at the time.

[Some White Mormons, especially with the quota system, and the population of draft age Mormon men in Utah and other heavily populated Mormon states, could not qualify for deferments, if they were already expended.  Some probably did serve voluntarily, or via the draft.  However, the argument is that White Mormon Men had the church-sponsored opportunity to knock on doors for two years to dodge the draft; while Black Mormon Men were denied the same opportunity by the LDS church.  Timothy]

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Answer From:Marco

ha ha

slam dunk for phrog!
(and two extra points for using the word obfuscate)

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Answer From:Monkee Toad

"could you just call yourself an idiot for me...I'm really tired."

[Ask a legitimate question that embarrasses a Mormon and this is the response you will get more often than not.  Timothy]



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Answer From:Ruby Slippers

As others have pointed out - you cannot reasonably hold the LDS responsible for policy that they do not control/the government controls.

[YES - we can hold the LDS Church responsible.  The LDS church had the rules which prevented Black Mormon Men to qualify for the Minister of Religion deferment offered to White Mormon Men like Mitt Romney.  The government did not qualify anyone as a Minister of Religion.  The application has to be approved by local church officials signing off of the Minister of Religion exemption..  The only involvement in the government draft board was to determine if it the application is approved by church officials, and are they any deferment quotas left to issue.  Timothy]

You're only out here is the use of the word "reasonably", but you still don't come off well in this story.

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Answer From:only_me

I am not LDS mormon and even I can see that you are not addressing the issue with any intent other than to hold the LDS mormons responsible for deferments which the government negotiated. Those who have said your premise is incorrect are being kind.

[Again, someone blaming the United States Government for failing to issue exemptions to Black Mormon Men, because the LDS church never submitted any applications for Black Mormon Men to be given deferments for a two year missionary assignment.  Timothy]

No rational mind can hold a religious group responsible for deferments made by and through the US government....and no rational mind can accept that simply because you pick a time period when the LDS did not have black missionaries that it speaks for the whole of the church now (or even then). and No rational mind would charge "racist" for young men serving a mission and THEN serving their country as many did. Deferment means simply that - deferring or putting off for a short time.

[We already pointed out, the LDS is the only one responsible for determining who gets Mormon priesthood, who gets Temple Recommends, who gets approved for a Missionary assignment - all three requirement for the LDS church to approve an application for the government to approve the deferment.  How has the government erred?  Timothy]

Sorry sir, but your agenda is showing.

[Agenda - uncovering that bigotry still exists in the Mormon church - YES, an agenda.  As well as an agenda to publicize the Mormon bigotry against homosexuals.  Timothy]

drafted in Utah as well and served with many an LDS soldier

[Only your word for it, with Lying for the Lord, we don't know for sure. You could show a redacted form of your discharge papers, and papers of all the LDS your served with - showing race of course.  The issue is how many Black Mormon Men's names on are the Wall in DC that weren't offered the opportunity to have a Minister of Religion exemption because they were BLACK MORMONS.  Timothy]

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Answered by Senator John McClain
mexican-american catholics and german-american lutherans couldn't hold the LDS priesthood either to serve a mission. Is the LDS church to blame for those draftees too?
[YES, to offer exemptions from the Vietnam Draft based on race is racist, and whichever agency, church, or company would have a policy like that, is to blame.  Timothy]
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by Kerry
Its rather simple, really. The deferment allowed for full time missionary service. Missionary service was totally voluntary on the part of the member, male-female, black-white, young or old. 
[You couldn't be more WRONG.  During the era of the Vietnam Draft, no Black Mormon Men could hold the priesthood, therefore couldn't hold a Temple Recommend, therefore couldn't be a Mormon Missionary.  Strictly a White Mormon thing.  No blacks could apply.  Timothy]

So, if the member requested missionary service over military service, the deferment was requested. In other words, any discrepancy in race was a result of the member desiring missionary service. And, you miss the obvious here, there were many MORE Caucasian members in a position to participate in missionary service than others. The logical result was that there would be more deferments.
[Lying for the Lord - no BLACK MORMON MAN could submit an application for deferment, because to be a Mormon Missionary, you had to be White, you had to have a Temple Recommend, and you needed to have the Priesthood.   The Missionary field during the Vietnam War was not Black inclusive, it was an ELITE WHITE BOY ONLY CLUB.  Timothy]

You say: "phrog - spoken like a true white Mormon man defending the honor of his own cowardice."
I say, If and its a big IF you want to join the LDS Church, then you would have a beef to bring up. IF on the other hand, you don't care, then this all really does not personally mean anything to you. I also say, if you want to speak of cowardice, then you man up, study with the LDS missionaries, pray about it and take your beef before GOD. Until then, you do not have a leg to stand on, and ahem, and are "afraid" of what God will tell you.
[I was in the Bull Number Two of the Mormon Cult for five years.  I left after discovering lies, coverups and other issues where I didn't want to be a member of a society that believes in Lying for the Lord.  After discovering that Mormons believe in BECOMING GODS, after finding out that Mormons baptized after death - Adolf Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy (he was supposedly Mormon, then converted to Buddist, then after death the Mormons took him back), John Wayne Gacy, and many other serial killers, as well as hundreds, if not thousands of Jewish Holocaust victims.  God answered me with Galatians 1:6-9 NIV:
6.  I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel
7.  which is really no gospel at all.  Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8.  But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
9.  As we have already said, so now I say again:  If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally damned!
Then I was told to follow 2 Timothy 4: 2 - 5 NIV:
2.  Preach the Word:  be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage - -  with great patience and careful instructions.
3.  For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.  Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
4.  They will turn their ears away from the turn and turn aside to myths.
5.  But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
Just a few verses of a large charter.  Timothy]

The LDS Church has done more on the African continent to improve the lives of all races, than any other religious denomination, per capita membership as a whole than any one else. That's NOT being racist in any serious academician's book.
[Again, we are discussing American racism, the Vietnam War draft, and White Mormon Men having exemptions for door knocking denied by the LDS to Black Mormon Men.  Timothy]

Be a man and learn the truth. Not the precipice you have apparently heard and hang desperately onto. Who is the real coward?
[A false witness will perish, and whoever listens to him will be destroyed forever.  Proverbs 21:28  NIV]
[He who listens to a life-giving rebuke will be at home among the wise.  Proverbs 15:31 NIV]


Lifelong member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

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Answered by Ammon:

Joseph Smith said...

...when I viewed the condition of men throughout the world, and more especially in this boasted realm, where the Declaration of Independence

"holds these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness;"
but at the same time some two or three millions of people are held as slaves for life, because the spirit in them is covered with a darker skin than ours...

Joseph Smith announced that all Black people should be given their freedom. And that all Black people should be allowed to vote, the same as White people. And that all Black people should receive large land grants as reparations for slavery.

[Ammon, this would be fine and dandy, but what happened once Bigot Young arrived in Salt Lake?  Blacks were not allowed the Priesthood until 1978, which meant the Black Mormons could not qualify for Draft deferments as Mormon Ministers of Religion. Timothy]
Joseph Smith was subsequently murdered by a mob of Pro-Slavery Anti-Mormons in cold blood.

[Why mob-violence?  Let's see it started with Mormons in Ohio, Joseph Smith embezzling the life savings of Mormons and non-Mormons in his illegal banking operation.  Running at night to avoid arrest warrants.  When in Nauvoo Illinois, Smith ordered the destruction for the printing presses printing critical articles against the Mormons, polygamy, Joe's wives- violating the First Amendment rights of many in town.  Mormons used mob violence prior to his death - not that two wrongs don't make a right, but a half truth does make a full lie.  Lying for the Lord, Mormons have a weird sense of morality. Timothy]
The question is this, why did Non-Mormons and Anti-Mormons start slavery of Black people in the first place???

[Has nothing to do with Black Mormons not having Mormon Minister of Religion draft deferments during the Vietnam War.  Mormons, Romney especially, when confronted with an embarrassing question, answer their own questions off topic instead. Timothy]
Why did Non-Mormons and Anti-Mormons continue slavery of Black people after starting it???

[Again, not connected to Mormon discrimination during the Vietnam War.  Mormons could have ordained Black Mormon men, allowed Blacks to have Temple Recommends, and to be on Missons, qualifying for Mormon Minister of Religion deferments which the White Mormons, like Romney enjoyed.  Timothy]
Why did Non-Mormons and Anti-Mormons murder Joseph Smith in cold blood even though Joseph Smith had publicly announced his absolute opposition to the slavery of Black people???

[Cold blood, you are discounting the armed Mormon mob, former Nauvoo Legion members gathered around the town, with rumors of an assault on the jail to free their convict Prophet again, denying justice for another countless time since New York. Timothy]
Anti-Mormons have some answering to do don't you think???

[Mormons, why aren't you answering why you discriminated against the Black Mormons?  Going back and blaming slavery for your 1965 - 1975 policy which put black mormons in the draft without the option of Minister of Religion deferments?  Timothy]
In the Vietnam war, if someone did not want to go to Vietnam then what they needed to do was to go to College. Any White Mormon who had enough money and good enough grades would have had that option.

[Translation:  The Draft Board only authorized a limited number of Mormon Minister of Religon deferments, after abuse of the deferments by the Mormons.  By having a Black Mormon take a limited deferment, it took away a draft deferment for Minister of Religion from a White Superior Mormon.

But why should a Black Mormon only have one option:  College deferment.  When White Mormon men had two options:  Minister of Religion, and College - like Romney enjoyed?  Timothy]
That applied to Non-Mormons as well as Mormons. Rewriting history to fit some bizarre narrative for purely political points to support a man, Obama the mad bomber, who has helped to murder thousands of Black people in Libya is shameful and blatantly propagandist.

[Mormon thinking is scary - not answering your church's discrimination against blacks during the Vietnam War and how it affected Blacks not having an option for deferments as Minister of Religion.  Avoid embarrassing questions - it isn't just Romney folks!  Timothy]

Furthermore there weren't that many members of THE Church Of JESUS CHRIST Of Latter Day Saints back then in the United States who were African American to begin with.

[So if there were few Black Mormons, why not give out Minister of Religion deferments to the few Black Mormons?  It wouldn't take away too many slots from the Mormon White Boys.  Timothy]
Why did the Non-Mormons and Anti-Mormons continue a sort of virtual-slavery after slavery was abolished officially after the Civil War???

[Forgetting to include Mormon discrimination?  No ordination for Blacks, no Temple Recommends for Blacks, no leadership positions for blacks.....we could go on.  Timothy]
Why are you blaiming Mormons who are a small minority of the World's population for all the problems in the World, and back during the Vietnam they were even a smaller minority of the U.S. population then they are now???

[I'm not blaming the Vietnam War on Mormons.  You twist the questions.  I blame the discrimination of the White led Mormon church to only issue recommendations to the Draft Boards for White Mormons to be granted Minister of Religion deferments.  Treating blacks in contempt, good enough to go to war, not good enough for a mission.  Timothy]
Mormons give more money to charity than any other group of people in the world according to income tax returns. Why didn't you mention that fact when you tried to attack Mormons with some non-sensical point???

[Mormon financials are not subject to outside audits, so relying on Mormon numbers is not accurate.  The population report from the Pew Forum this year showed that Mormons submit numbers to fit what they want to outcome to say.  Timothy]

A little bit of an ax to grind??? Maybe??? Obviously???
How many Mormons are there who went on a Mission for THE Church Of JESUS CHRIST Of Latter Day Saints and then went to fight in the Vietnam War, and then died, are on the War Memorial Wall in Washington D.C...
[The question was how many Black Mormons were sent who did not have an opportunity to enjoy a Minister of Religion deferment available to all White Mormon men.  Timothy]

and you did the internet equivelant of spiting on that Vietnam War Memorial wall, that now has their names on it???

[Your remarks show that truly the Mormons don't want to seriously address this sore area of discrimination during a Mormon election year.  Your Mormon logic shows that Mormons aren't qualified to be in the Oval Office either.  Timothy]
Are you proud of that for doing that??? Do you feel brave for having done that??? Do you feel like the big man for having done that???

[White Mormons like Romney symbolically "spit" on THE WALL every day they wake up and don't apologize for discriminating against blacks, which resulted in the refusal to issue Minister of Religion deferments to non-White Mormons.  Timothy] Chat.

1. Why did the Mormons allow Black Mormons to fight and die in Vietnam, while it was optional for the White Mormon boys?

2. Why hasn't the Mormon cult apologized for it's racist policy that allowed Black Mormon men to fight and die, all the while it protected it's special White Mormon boys?

3. Does the lack of black representation even today, after 34 years since blacks were given the priesthood, go to demonstrate that the Mormons are determined to maintain it's Elite White Boy Only Club?